Reviving Biblical Greek The Agora
  The Greek Piazza               
  FAQFAQ SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist
ProfileProfile UsergroupsUsergroups CalendarCalendar
 REGISTERREGISTER  Log inLog in Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages

Machen chapter 9 question
Page 1 of 1   
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    THE AGORA Forum Home -> Machen Exercises
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mikenoel
New Member
New Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Machen chapter 9 question Reply with quote

I'm working through Machen on my own. I'm up to chapter 9 and things are going reasonably well. The use of this/that and "further uses of aujtovV" is killing me though.

I'm working on the translations from greek to english at the end of the chapter. It's not going as smoothly as I would like. I'm particularly stuck on number 15:

ajgaqhv ejstin hJ ejpaggeliva sou kai; ajgaqh; ei\ aujthv

I've gotten as far as:

A good woman is the promise of you and [good you are she]

I think this is correct up to the stuff in [. But then I'm stuck. Without the "she" I could see "you are good" since "you are" takes the nominative. Without the "good" I could see "you are she" for the same reason. I can't see "she is good" because in that case ejstivn would have been used.

I thought it might be that aujthv was referring to the subject of the sentence using the intensifier concept so that the result is:

A good woman, herself, is the promise of you and you are good.

But I don't know if it works for the aujthv to be all the way at the end like that.

Clearly I am missing something. What is it?
_________________
Mike Noel (http://www.vnoel.com)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Klaas
Contributing Member
Contributing Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 22
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ἀγαθή ἐστιν ἡ ἐπαγγελία σου καὶ ἀγαθὴ εἶ αὐτή
good is the promise/announcement of-yours and good you-are self -->good is your promise/announcement and good are you yourself!

ἀγαθή means ‘good’ (female form), not ‘good woman’ [that’s ἀγαθὴ γυνή].
As for αὐτός: it means ‘( [him/her/them]-selves/selves’ whenever it’s within a sentence that has a personal pronoun (or an implicit, non expressed pronoun) or a noun which has the same case/gender/number as the αὐτός-pronoun.
Immediately after an article it means ‘(the) same’.
When it stands alone, it means ‘(to) him/her/them’ etc.

Εἴδομεν αὐτόν. We’ve seen him (stands alone)
Εἴδομεν τὸν βασιλέα αὐτόν. We’ve seen the king himself. (accompanying noun with same gender/number/case)
Εἴδομεν (ἡμεῖς) αὐτοὶ τὸν βασιλέα. We’ve seen the king ourselves (accompanying [implicit] pronoun with same gender/number/case)
Εἴδομεν τὸν αὐτὸν ἄνδρα. We’ve seen the same man (immediately after article).

Now, in ‘ἀγαθὴ εἶ (συ) αὐτή’ there’s an implicit pronoun, that we can deduce from the verb [σύ].
_________________
כח גַּם אֱוִיל מַחֲרִישׁ, חָכָם יֵחָשֵׁב
(משלי פרק יז)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikenoel
New Member
New Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply. It makes perfect sense now that it has been explained.

How did you know that αγαθή (agaqh) was the "subject" of the phrase rather than the object? Couldn't it have been "the promise is good"? Both ("good" and "the promise") are in the nominative case but "the promise" is a noun while "good" is an adjective.

This is what confused me. When I saw ἀγαθή (agaqh) I assumed that this was a case of the adjective playing the role of a noun as implied by the gender and number of the adjective. For example, consider:

βλέπομεν ὁι ἀγαθοί (blepomen oi agaqoi)

Should be "we see the good men", right? In that case the adjective stands for a noun. Are there some clues that indicate that the adjective is in this role?
_________________
Mike Noel (http://www.vnoel.com)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stephenR
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 96
Location: St Helens, Lancs, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first phrase, you have two nominatives: agaqh and ejpaggelia, so they must both be the subject, and one of them (the predicate) is in opposition to the other. Since ejpaggelia is a simple noun, it must be the true subject, and ajgaqh is the predicate: 'Your promise is good'

Stephen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
stephenR
Veteran Member
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 96
Location: St Helens, Lancs, England

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you know that αγαθή (agaqh) was the "subject" of the phrase rather than the object?


agaqh has no article, so it is not a substantive. ejpaggelia does have an article, so it is the subject.

Stephen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mikenoel
New Member
New Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Now that I think about it I realize that both "the promise is good" and "good is the promise" mean that same thing and the words are all playing the same roles.

Thanks for clarifying.
_________________
Mike Noel (http://www.vnoel.com)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    THE AGORA Forum Home -> Machen Exercises All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Email to a Friend.
Page 1 of 1   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
THE AGORA Forum Home


phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Powered by AVLUX Solutions